MEET THE MIND
DEVIN DABNEY
in conversation with liam lonsdale
In all my years of climbing and travelling I have encountered some fascinating characters.
For me, it is one of the things that makes climbing truly great.
When I learned about Devin Dabney, I knew I needed to get to know him better.
Devin’s story in climbing is one of self-discovery and community, but to say that this is just a climbing story would be to massively undersell it.
LL: Devin, I’m going to commit the cardinal sin of the modern interviewer and use your instagram profile as a starting point. It says, “setter, rapper, jedi knight, artist, storyteller’ … who is Devin Dabney?
DD: [laughing] It’s funny that you should mention my bio because I actually struggle a lot with exactly what it is that I identify as. I actually just talked with a friend about this a couple of days ago. If I really think about it, the best way to describe me is as a creative. I mean, I am a rock climber, climbing is very important to me … but I hesitate to call myself just a climber, in fact I hesitate to call myself just an ‘anything’ … which is the reason why my bio lists so many things.
That’s the simplest way to put it would be to say, anything I do is going to tie back to being creative. Speaking specifically to climbing, I think that climbing is one of the most creative sports that there is.
LL: Ok, well, that’s definitely a start. Let’s talk about Devin Dabney the climber. Where did it all begin?
DD: Back in 2010 I was studying architecture at Ball State. I was a sophomore and a friend that I sat next to wanted to take a belay class, naturally he needed a partner … and he asked me. At that time I was not someone that was into the outdoors at all. In fact I wasn’t a daring person at all. I was shy, I was afraid of heights, I didn't like to take risks. For my first year of climbing I really was not into it.
Even so, I kept at it. I was an athlete in high school and so I would climb here and there through 2011 because I figured it was a good way to stay in shape. A lot of my climbing was just being in the gym, hanging out, and talking to people. The climbing part wasn’t my cup of tea, mainly because I wasn’t very good – and especially when I was younger, I didn’t enjoy doing things that I wasn't good at. The community was the thing that kept me going back for long enough to finally change my perspective.
In 2012 I started working at a climbing gym. I needed a job, I was saving up to study abroad. It was in that same year that I first climbed OUTSIDE. That was the eureka moment, when I realized that I really loved climbing. I generally tell people that I started climbing in 2012, because that’s when I truly became a climber.
Wow, saying that now I realise that was almost 10 years ago. I feel like I should be better!
LL: Ah you got bitten by the bug outside! That’s the good stuff, right there. In that case, I want to know more about your first experience climbing outside.
DD: It was at Red River Gorge, I was there on a three day trip. The RRG is the closest big climbing area near to where I went to school, so it made sense to go there. Honestly, I don’t remember every zone we visited or even which routes we climbed, but I remember the feeling. Being outside felt amazing, and the experience of climbing on actual real rock instead of colored plastic was incredible. It was on this trip that I really refined important skills like leading and cleaning a route . I was fortunate to have mentors that were organised and knowledgeable that taught me what was what.On the final day of the trip I onsighted a route, and then cleaned it, and it really felt like I had the skills to go out and climb anywhere. I remember looking out from the top of the cilff, whether or not it was a conscious thought in the moment I don’t remember, but it was definitely in that moment that something clicked and I realised that climbing wasn’t a fad for me, that it was “forever”.
LL: Forever climber, yes! Do you have a favourite climbing area so far?
Coffee Cup, Leavenworth, V8 © Vivian Dao
DD: RRG is a cop out answer, but being my home area, it’s definitely a favorite and one I always go back to. Honestly, I don’t think there is anywhere better for sport climbing. That being said, I am more of a boulderer these days. When I first started climbing I was 100% sport, I actually thought bouldering was dumb and was pretty sure I would never get into it. Now I’m the opposite. 100% a boulderer. I don’t have a desire to be on rope at all. I’m sure in a few years I’ll shift again, maybe I’ll be a sport climber, maybe I’ll be a … I don’t know what. That’s a long way of saying, let’s go with the RRG for sport. For bouldering, I have only been to Fontainebleau once, but I truly think that place is one of the greatest climbing areas on earth. I’ve been climbing in Leavenworth a bunch lately and I really like it there too. The style gels with me. I like it a lot.
LL: Well, we will have to get your favorite climbing into a ticklist on KAYA, that’s for sure. At what stage did route setting become part of your climbing life?
DD: I pretty much started route-setting when I started climbing. Let me take this opportunity to offer a disclaimer to the readers, I really wouldn’t recommend doing it that way. It really is not the best way to learn. The gym I worked at didn’t have a dedicated route setting team, everyone that worked there kind of did everything; front desk, instruction, all of it. It was kind of a free for all, and not everyone wanted to set routes. I particularly liked the idea of trying to teach or force a certain movement, or style, using particular holds. I was always curious to experiment with holds and to see how people would climb what I had set. A couple of the guys I worked with used to be really high level competition climbers, and were great route setters, so learning from them meant I got good pretty quickly. The gym ended up becoming my own laboratory, where the majority of the routes ended up being mine because I just loved setting so much!
Then there is naming routes, the other reason that I fell in love with route setting! I love coming up with name themes.
LL: Haha. I want to hear more about that, but aside from a talent at naming routes, what do you think makes a good route setter?
DD: For me, a good route setter must have three qualities: They must be service minded. They have to be empathetic. They have to be team oriented. If a setter has those three qualities as a base, the rest is a bonus.
LL: Can you elaborate?
DD: Someone who is service minded is setting with other people in mind. Creating a route with the customers as the focus generally yields good climbing. A setter that cares more about the idea, than the end product, generally ends up setting something that isn’t as good.
A setter has to empathetic in order to put themselves in the shoes of whoever is going to climb your route. Just because you as the setter can climb something, or understands a move, doesn’t mean everyone else will. Keeping that in mind when setting is always a good idea.
The best boulders always come together as a part of a team effort. Whilst the idea and initial bones of a route or boulder might be from one setter, other setters might have tweaks and suggestions to offer up that improve the overall quality of the climb.
Oh and the last thing you will need is an impact driver, I have a pink one, obviously. And some decent ear protection too, setting is loud. You can buy those, the other stuff is money-can’t-buy! Haha.
© Katie Jo Myers
LL: You said you love naming routes. Do you use names to inspire what you set, or do you set and then choose the name that fits best?
DD: If you really want to know how much I care about naming routes, I’ll let you into a secret, I have a note on my phone that is a list of ideas for names.
And to answer the question, it’s a little of both. Sometimes the name can influence the route, I remember when I was setting with a superhero theme, I knew that ‘The Incredible Hulk’ had to be super burly, and I knew that Ant Man needed to be on tiny holds.
And I can set the other way around also, naming a route after setting and climbing it and deciding “what does this feel like?”, sometimes it’s just totally random. That’s what I love about names, and naming routes, it’s another way of keeping creativity alive in the climbing space. Especially if I am blanking on what to set, names can keep things fresh. Sometimes I will go through my list and just try to set something that speaks to a name, like, what does “Goblin Attack Force” climb like?
LL: That is so interesting to me. As a setter I generally get inspired either by the holds that are available to me, or by wanting to set a particular sequence and move. Your method is a whole new twist on how to find inspiration …
DD: With ANYTHING creative that I do, I try to give myself multiple different ways to get inspired. I’m not the kind of person that can see holds on the floor and just know what to create with them. I hate to admit it, but I have a saved playlist of indoor climbing videos that inspire me. Sometimes I try to replicate a sequence or a move that I climbed outside too. One easy thing that I do is ask someone who isn’t a route setter, “what’s your favourite style?” and then try and set based off that.
LL: I love that. To me it emphasises that setting is open to interpretation, just as climbing is. We can all put our own spin on the process. Speaking of process, and more specifically creative process, I want to go back to the your bio again. One thing that people should know you for, is your music. You are an incredibly talented rapper and musician. How did you get into that?
DD: Music has always been a passion. It’s in my blood. I grew up around a very musical family. An interesting story, I didn’t know my father growing up, but both of us played the violin when we were kids. I didn’t know this since I didn’t actually meet him until I was an adult, I think there must be some weird genetic thing there. Anyway music has always been part of my life, it wasn't until I was a teenager that I got into trying to rap. I wasn’t a typical Black kid, I was struggling to find how to fit in. I’d rap in the hallways and the lunch tables at school with my peers, and that’s where I cut my teeth, it was kind of a social thing. Rapping was one way that I found I could fit in, in the same way that route setting became a way for me to fit in with the climbing community. I always loved hip hop growing up, but by my mid-teens it seemed like hip-hop was becoming trite. When Kanye [West] released College Dropout, something changed. I played that album HUNDREDS of times. It inspired me so much. The music, the way he went about it ... it totally inspired me.
“if you are always doing the same thing to get inspired, then you are always going to produce the same end result. ”
LL: Tell me more about how your music comes about. What does the creative process of writing a rap look like?
DD: Nowadays its like drilling for oil, I do a few different things to spark my creativity and then I just GO. When I was younger a lot of what I wrote came from free-styling. When you freestyle, you haven’t prepared anything and you’re just saying whatever comes to mind, sometimes you’ll realise how good it is and think, “oh wow I need to use that, I need to write that down” often that’s where some of my best stuff comes from.
© Dave Burdick
When I know I want to make a song, I am very intentional about curating a playlist of the sound that i want to go for … then I identify what it is that i like about that sound, and use that as inspiration.
Just like route setting, I try not to limit how I go about tapping into my creativity … my take is that if you are always doing the same thing to get inspired, then you are always going to produce the same end result.
LL: At the start of one of your most recent tracks, W-A-P, you say, “I’m feeling some type of way this evening”. The track itself is incredibly powerful and is heavy with a message from the off, but I really felt your emotion in those few words, it set the whole track off for me in a way that I was kind of bracing for impact, did you write that deliberately, or did it just come out in the recording?
DD: 90% of rap is sh*t talking. You have to believe you are the best and talk trash about anyone else. The is especially true in old rap, where the rappers are always talking right before the verse or as the track fades. It’s something I try to keep alive in my own music, so it was intentional in that respect. The words I say in that particular track, that wasn’t planned. As I started recording I felt like I needed to warn people, like, ‘just so you know, this is going to be serious’. It’s actually a really interesting metaphor for my mindset around rap as whole right now. I am trying to create music that is in the moment, that expresses how I feel. W-A-P expressed exactly how I felt that day. The listener is being served exactly what I was thinking about. I am trying to keep myself, my listeners and my music in the moment.
LL: At the end of that same track, you say “…barely any climbers Black” and that caught my ear because you here you are mentioning climbing in what is otherwise a very good, but very ‘normal sounding’ rap track. I remember the first time I heard O-Dub [Kris Hampton], maybe back in 2007?! And hearing someone rap about climbing and being surprised then too. It would be a serious niche, but is climbing rap a thing?
DD: Part of my rap personality is about me embracing that I am a climber. Rapping about being at the crag, the same way conventional rappers talk about being at the club, it seems logical to me. I first heard O-Dub in 2014 and I thought it was so cool that someone was combining climbing and rap. At the time I was struggling to find inspiration in my own music, because I didn't really know what I wanted to rap about … and hearing Kris with those rhymes, that fired me up to write about whatever I wanted. I credit him with my own continuation of rapping. It was O-Dub that made me realise that I can just make music about climbing.
LL: Thank you O-Dub! OK. So let’s talk about you JEDI Knight status. It’s hunch, but I’m guessing you don’t mean the light sabre-toting kind of Jedi.
“When I was climbing I felt like I could be a ‘person’ instead of a ‘Black person’. Being Black didn’t have a negative effect on my experience. Which is so crazy, because now, we are all seeing, that is NOT how it is.”
DD: [Laughing] Well, actually it has two meanings. One is the obvious reference to Star Wars. I have been a huge Star Wars fan since I was a kid. I grew up watching it. I am a self-certified nerd.
Then of course there is the meaning that you were hinting at. Justice, Equity, Diversity and Inclusion. I would like to tell you that I’ve known that I was a J.E.D.I. Knight forever, but honestly it wasn’t until this year that I took that on as part of my identity as it were. There are a lot of reasons for that. I mentioned earlier, I am a shy person, and I generally avoid conflict. At least I did in the past. The other thing is that I have struggled a lot with my identity as a Black man, feeling like I wasn’t “Black enough” to represent Black people, or to fight for equality. This year has changed a lot of things for a lot of people, myself included. I came to terms with the fact that I don't have to be a Black history professor, or Malcolm X to advocate for equality and speak up for what is right. Reading Malcom X’s book was very liberating actually, it gave me the confidence to use my voice.
This has been on my mind my whole life, it’s only this year that I have had the courage to do something, really do something about it.
LL: It has been really interesting to see how the climbing community has responded to the JEDI conversation as a whole. It is upsetting to me to see the the way the current climbing community has acted. In my naiveté I thought that climbing was better than it is. I thought the community was genuinely open and welcoming, that we were special. 2020 proved me wrong.
DD: I have been feeling exactly the same. Even as a Black man in climbing, I had a wholly positive experience. I was under the very naive impression that climbing was this bubble of purity and goodness. I mean, I know as a sport it is overwhelmingly white, but I had already been spending so much time around mostly white people in school that I didn’t really think about it.
The community I had was so welcoming, people didn't treat me differently because of my race. That was one of the draws, y’know? Being Black didn't have a negative effect on my experience. When I was climbing I felt like I could be a ‘person’ instead of a ‘Black person’. Now that just seems so crazy to me, because as a community a light has been shone on us, and we have been shown that it is simply NOT the case. I think that the last decade of me being in climbing has been a very slow awakening to that fact. I used to think that if I saw something bad at a crag, say some douchebag was running his mouth or whatever, I would think they were the outlier. However, when you continually have those experiences, when you realise that the climbing media is white washed, it’s impossible to deny. The other realisation I had was that, it is very easy to believe that climbing is not racist … but how can we expect that to be the case, when it is borne of a society that is inherently racist? I thought climbing was untouched, and I learned the truth. The most disappointing part is to see that people aren’t willing to accept that reality. “The outdoors can’t be racist” they say, yah ok, sure. We are on the same page, Liam. And it’s been really hard for me to identify what it means to BE a climber. And even if i want to be a climber anymore …
LL: Buuuut, then you go climbing and you think … oh my days, this is the best thing ever … right?
DD: [laughing] YES. And it’s funny that you say that, because I haven’t been climbing much at all the last few months, and a couple of days ago I thought of some friends that built a home wall and I got the biggest hankering to climb when I thought about them. I realised that because they are my friends, and I care about them and I want to see them … I also wanted to climb. And it just reinforces for me how much people and climbing are interwoven for me. I can’t have one without the other. Without the community, climbing feels empty. I want to keep fighting to make climbing like that everywhere, for everyone. I want to make it so that the supportive community is inseparable from climbing.
LL: This resonates so deeply, I can literally chart my best climbing performances and my fondest climbing memories with the people I was around in the months before and during that time. The people that fuelled me the most, the people that inspired me when I was surrounded by them, that is when I climbed my absolute best.
Devin Dabney’s TOP 10 RECOMMENDED CLIMBS 💥
DD: Right before all of this, in the fall of 2019, I stopped climbing for a few months due to injury. Right before that, I was the strongest that i have ever been. The day before I got injured was the day we had our Rocktoberfest bouldering competition. I was surrounded by the entire Nike climbing community. It’s not just about being around people that you like, but also being surrounded by people with the same values as you, Nike is a great place for cultivating your drive to get better, it’s a culture of excellence and hard work, so everyone who is there is someone that is very driven and self motivated to train and be strong and be healthy. So when I think about myself at my strongest, I was surrounded by people who were also very strong, and driven and active. People that cared about the same things I cared about. And it got me psyched to the point of being at the top of my game.
“I want to build a JEDI temple.”
LL: That’s what it’s all about! It feels so good to be at the top of our game, right? OK, so with that in mind, what aspirations and goals do you have now in all those fields?
DD: I want to build a JEDI temple. Ha. I want to create a place, like a JEDI temple for people who want to become route setters, that have the gift of ‘the force’. The force being the three qualities I mentioned earlier. I want to make a place where people can learn to become route setters from the basics, all the way through to honing a professional skillset.
LL: Wow. OK. Tell me more, why, how?
DD: Route settings is such a specialised and difficult skill. There are so many gyms these days, great route setters are becoming harder to find. Aspiring route setters often find it hard to break into the field, subsequently it’s very hard to get good at it, there aren’t many ways to learn. I am really focussed on finding a way to have widespread education for route setters, theoretical education, not just tools … something like a trade school. That is my big goal. I am in the middle of weaving the network of people that can help set this up!
I’ve been talking to many friends who are setters around the country that could help with setup. The tough part is figuring out how to do it especially now with us being stuck indoors and isolated. I imagine it being grass roots, maybe popping up in different places around the country, a clinic that comes to them.
People that join the school then get the beneifts of huge, nationwide network of route setters and gyms. The idea being that we are able to offer immediate access to each other as professional peers, and also to a big network of gyms as places to utilise our skills.
LL: I love it. And what about music, or are you focussed on the school?
DD: Oh of course I want to make more music! I especially want to put more tracks on my Spotify. I’ve been making climbing music for the past five years and I often can’t put that on Spotify because I parody other peoples music and use their beats. My goal this year was to put out at least one new and original song a month. It might sound like a small goal, but it’s not that easy.
LL: Excellent, well that will make for plenty of new listening material. And what about climbing, do you have any personal goals there?
DD: You know, I don’t really have any climbing goals right now. There’s a V8/9 at HP40 that I had been wanting to do before I turn thirty. Now that goal is seeming less likely given the circumstances around travel etc … basically I don’t know if i’ll make it down there again in the near future. My life goal for climbing is to be experienced enough and strong enough that I can climb whatever looks fun to me! I want to enjoy my climbing, always.
LL: Is there anything else you want to add?
DD: Do your homework. Use your vote.
[COVER PHOTO OF DEVIN DABNEY TAKEN BY DEVIN DABNEY #selfie]
FIND DEVIN aka DEUCEISHIHOP ON KAYA
DEVIN DABNEY is based out of Portland, Oregon and is the Head Route Setter at Nike Rock Gym.
TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THE MUSIC DEVIN MAKES CHECK OUT HIS BANDCAMP.
About the Author:
The Author at Castle Rock, CA | 2019 © Alton Richardson